Posted by: Open Minds July 24, 2014 Reproduced
here with special authorization of Mr. Nagib Kary, Editor of Open Minds to whom
we are very grateful.
Jacques Vallée has held many titles
over the years; astronomer, computer scientist, venture capitalist, author, and
more. He has researched UFOs for decades and has written several books on
the topic. The lead character on the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind
was inspired by Vallée. We recently received this interview from Nagib Kary who
runs the French UFO website Ovnis-Direct.com. Kary and several associates asked questions of Vallée
in February and recently translated the interview into English.
Kary has graciously asked Open Minds to re-post their insightful
interview.
Jacques Vallée discussing UFOs in
2011 at the Global Competitiveness Forum in Saudia Arabia. (Credit: GFC2011)
Questions from Fabrice Bonvin:
Fabrice is a Swiss ufologist,
writer, psychologist by training who deals especially with the relation between
ufos and ecology and the psychological impact of apparitions on witnesses.
Q1: How do you see ufology and ufological activity in 15-20
years ? What will fundamentally change — or won’t ?
We shouldn’t be surprised if we see
an increase in these manifestations as humanity goes on to a new step of
systematic exploration of space. But the question should be addressed to the
phenomenon itself: It has shown that it was diverse, adaptable and
unpredictable. It also showed that it was fundamentally interested in our
technological progress and our technical prototypes.
Q2: Who is the thinker, the intellectual or the researcher you
admire the most and why?
Maybe you have noticed it while
reading Science Interdite: I found a great source of inspiration
in Aimé Michel,
a remarkable spirit by the strength of his vision and the deep humanity of his
intellect. The fact that such a thinker has been ignored and even despised by
the intellectual elite in France is not a compliment to our country. However,
the limited number of people who have known him have had a great privilege.
According to Aimé, Ufos were only a mystery among others. He was a universal
thinker.
Q3: What is the current scientific discipline which would be
able to benefit ufology and its achievement?
I can think of two disciplines whose
application is urgent: computer science of course, with data-mining , and
medicine which has never been applied to a real study of long term
effects on witnesses of close encounters. Beyond this, of course, physics must
take the subject as an “existence theorem” to understand physical reality in a
broader sense.
Aimé Michel
Q4: How are consciousness and Ufos related? What role does
consciousness play in Ufo manifestations?
We have seen ufos as classical
spaceships for a long time, in accordance with science fiction in the forties
and fifties. This interpretation persists, especially in France where recent
breakthrough of parapsychology are not well known and where psychic effects
reported by witnesses are considered either as evidences of mental weakness or
as electromagnetic side effects. Yet, as documentation improves, we find out
that the physical aspects of the phenomenon are as negotiable as its psychic
effects: it is as if it took control of a given area, including witnesses’
perceptions. It is that aspect that discouraged Aimé Michel.
Q5: Do governments (and especially the USA) hide information
about Ufos on the public (according to you and your experience)?
There are two levels to that
question: (1) governments (and not only the USA) keep some information they
think most sensitive, especially reports which come from the military. It seems
that since 1947 this policy has been viewed as legitimate, in the interest of
populations and in the hope of discovering technological breakthroughs. (2) The
most difficult question is to know if breakthroughs have actually taken place.
To my mind, the phenomenon has probably resisted all analysis, classified or
not. The issue of opening all the files is going to arise again but it’s not as
simple to understand the Ufo phenomenon as to dismantle a MIG or to secretly
copy the space shuttle.
Q6: What advice would you give to the ufology community?
I don’t think I have personal advice
to give. It is obvious that we won’t make real progress in an environment of
petty squabbling. It would be best to avoid accusations that discourage
researchers from working together. The phenomenon is accessible at a local
level, so the possibility of field study and fast exchange of data is wide
open. That would be more useful than speculating on inaccessible, hypothetical
secrets in the drawers of governments.
Q7: What are your biggest regrets in your ufological career?
I sometimes wonder whether things
would have taken a different course if I had accompanied Allen Hynek to Detroit
during the swamp gas case. It was the biggest opportunity to pose the question
of the reality of the phenomenon before the American general public and the
scientific community. Together with Bill Powers’ advice, we could have
presented a realistic and urgent vision of the issue which would have been
understood by the media.
A lot of water has passed under the
bridge, as the Americans would say. If I look back, it is obvious that
professionally speaking, I wasted my time when I came back in France in late
1967. Should I regret it? I wouldn’t have written Passport to Magonia anywhere else than in Paris. Moreover, I wouldn’t have
experienced May ’68 on
the spot!
Questions about the book Science
Interdite, Vol 2 by Ovnis-Direct : P389,
answer of the author to Aimé Michel on the origin of Ufos (“Belmont Friday,
June 25th 1976”):
Public opinion only has two possible
positions toward Ufos: if you manage to take the idea away from people’s mind
that there are hallucinations, these same minds are going to draw the
conclusion that it is purely and simply about E.T.
Don’t you see that a technology
which can create local deformation of space might not be limited to produce
Ufos only, but any kinds of other phenomena which would seem miraculous?
Q1: Apart from Ufos, could you tell us what phenomena result
from such super technology?
These phenomena are in the
literature: reports of poltergeist are documented in the book by captain of
gendarmerie Tizané, as well as the famous deformations of metal by psychic
means reported by Soviets researchers or by Stanford Research Institute (or, in
France, by the material expert Crussard).
Nonlocality allows phenomena
described by the French physicist Yves Rocard in his experiments at Ecole
Normale Supérieure, as the relativist Olivier Costa de Beauregard had
emphasized. It is a pity that this field has been ignored for ideological
reasons. Maybe it was marginal in the 70s but it comes back at the center
of multiple broad issues.
P406, Aleister Crowley on
the Society for psychical research:
All their work brings evidence that
there are powers influencing humans. We have always known them: The universe is
full of dark and subtle manifestations of energy. But nobody before me has ever
managed to prove the outer intelligence to humankind whereas my compilation
has. But it is impossible to doubt that there is someone there, someone who is
able to organize events the same way Napoléon conceived his battle plans, with
an extent of unthinkable powers through which he can control the actions of the
people he has chosen to play a role in the implementation of his purposes.
Aleister Crowley
Q2: The publications made by people who belong to the Esoteric
Hermetic Movement like Aleister Crowley, Facius Cardan, John Dee and
others you name. Do they influence in any way
your research leading to the
hypothesis of the control system?
Definitely: before the development
of science as we know it, many lonely researchers or members of small groups
asked the same questions as we did. Facius Cardan’s father was a great
mathematician, John Dee was a scholar who was instrumental to the science of
navigation; others were chemists, alchemists or astronomers. They wondered
whether there was a general balance of the world that will give meaning to
human life and the phenomena which surround us.
Q3: According to you, what were the triggers of the
spiritual revolution in the 70s in the USA?
A new generation became aware of the
limitations of western culture and they revolted against religious, social,
political and artistic prohibitions in the world of their parents, who often
emerged mentally exhausted and culturally impoverished from the Second World
War. In that environment, it was normal that spiritual exploration went off in
all directions and was used by certain sects. I observed this phenomenon in the
USA but it existed in France and England as well, although it was less visible
but quite powerful: look at the Solar Temple.
Q4: We can see through your last book your reluctance before
certain techniques such as meditation through substances. A serious ufologist
who went to Amazonia spoke of the efficiency of methods used by shamans (using
ayahuasca) to reach other plans of reality. They are even described as
“technicians of consciousness.” What do you think about it?
In terms of field of research, all
these explorations are useful and valuable: current science asks the question
of the nature of reality both on a physical basis (quanta,
nonlocality etc) and physiological (information processing by the mind,
discovery of hidden mechanisms using « functional » MRI etc.)
When I met Terence McKenna I
realized during our conversations that our hypotheses on a possible “control
system” converged. But my own research involves a structured calibration
of data with calibration of investigation tools, which is not possible when one
is transported by the visions of drugs like ayahuasca or simply LSD.
Living in California since 1969, I
have seen many experiments derived from these methods, whether they came from
South American jungles or simply from drug companies. I understand their
usefulness to force some parts of the brain to reveal their function in the
construction of reality, but I haven’t learnt anything new or reliable for my own
work.
P427 – The author’s quotation:
The Ufo phenomenon looks like a
kaleidoscope which has three separate levels: a physical and technologic level;
a sociologic level; and finally a personal level, subliminal, which plays with
subtle shades of human psyche.
The first aspects seem to
show evidence of extraterrestrial origins; the second one would be within the
competence of human mythology and anthropology, if we refer to the societal
dimension only: this is the explanation which meets with the advanced skeptics’
approval, contrary to Menzel and Klass who are content with denying everything
outright.
The third aspect is the most
disconcerting: it suggests clues of a darker manipulation from terrestrial and
very material origins.
Q5: Have you achieved new discoveries on the third aspect of
the Ufo phenomenon over the last years?
We are faced with this third aspect
when we carry on case studies in the field. Everything is happening as if the
phenomenon was able to manipulate its environment (including its human
environment) in order to hide its real nature. To my mind, the camouflage uses
terrestrial elements and it is not simply a bureaucratic “cover-up” as it has
naively been believed for a long time.
Questions from Philippe Solal:
Phillippe is a doctor and associate
professor in Philosophy at INSA in Toulouse, teacher of
expression-communication, social psychology, philosophy of sciences and author
of several books in this field.
Q1: Physics and cosmology of this early 21st century are in crisis
and are looking for new patterns to represent the universe: multiverse,
multidimensional, folded, etc. Are you paying attention to this crisis
and does it give food for thought about the origin of Ufos?
I have followed these works, first
in astrophysics at the University of Texas which was a major cosmological
research centers, then at Stanford and SRI. The result was my book Autres
Dimensions where I wrote that Ufos give us the opportunity (among others)
to ask questions about the structure of the universe. I have recently given a
TED lecture on the physics of information in the framework of a meeting
in Brussels about the next 60 years, a period which I think will put these
questions at the center of research. The conference is on Youtube.
Q2: I understand that you have investigated an increase of
reports on cryptids in the USA over the last months. Would you tell us about
it?
It is a subject I had put aside for
a long time, first because I don’t have skills in biology or zoology and
especially because it seemed to me independent of the main observations I was
studying. I have been forced to come back to this position following series of
reports of crypto-zoological phenomena that were co-located with
well-documented observations of Ufos.
In 2012 and 2013, I traveled several
times in Utah with Professor Frank Salisbury, a distinguished biologist who had
also worked with NASA on botany in microgravity. We went all over the Uintah
mountain range and later across the semi-desert basin which expands from Vernal
to Fort Duchesne to meet the witnesses of these events. They were ranchers,
industrial workers and policemen (including the tribal police). In general,
those reports are not published, which makes the fieldwork essential to find
people and listen to them. Those trips taught me that the observation of these
creatures were to be taken seriously. As you may know it, similar observations
have been reported in France.
Questions from Daniel Robin:
Daniel is president of the Lyon
based association “OVNI Investigation”, field investigator and organizer
of Rencontres des Sciences et de l’Inexpliqué. On
the basis of concrete examples, he has drawn up an interference categorization
of the phenomenon on human consciousness.
Q1: In your books, you propose the hypothesis that
manifestations of the Ufo phenomenon could correlate with a learning program
for humanity. This system could be the same type as psychologist Burrhus
Frederic Skinner’s training process. Would you explain this hypothesis and show
that the manifestations of the Ufo phenomenon follow a program?
This hypothesis comes from data
processing compilations made during the 60s and 70s, which lead to a frequency
curve of the phenomenon which looks like a learning program (a “schedule of
reinforcement” according to Skinner), that is to say, a sequence of stimuli
which is pseudo-periodical. According to Skinner, such a program leads to
irreversible learning. It is also difficult to detect unless we study a long
series of observations.
Let’s notice at the same time that
military studies like the US Air Force Blue Book Project, or academic analyses
like that of Professor Condon at the University of Colorado have always treated
Ufo cases one by one, without any global perspective, which obviously hides
such a program if it exists. The often-recycled statement in the declarations
of governmental agencies that Ufos are not a threat, has never taken into
account the structure of the global evolution of the phenomenon.
To prove or disprove that
hypothesis, we should review recent data and update former cases in order to
expand the study in a longer period. I have had the opportunity to talk it over
with computer scientists from CNES. It is possible that many hypotheses would
converge within such an analysis.
Q2: During a conference you hosted in Montreal in Canada, you
talked about past work of arts in which possible Ufos representations can be
found. You also talked about Michelangelo’s painting which represents a black
triangle that the painter would have observed surely. Would you give us the
references of Michelangelo’s work?
The reference is the book of
Benedictine chronicler Benedetto Lushino entitled, Vulnera Diligentis
(second book, chapter XXII). He wrote that Michelangelo saw a “triangular sign”
on a calm night. It was bright (and not dark, by the way) with three tails, one
silvery, the second red and the third “flaming and bifurcated.” The observation
took place in Rome in 1513. Michelangelo was so impressed that he made a
painting, which unfortunately hasn’t survived, to my knowledge.
Questions from Jean-Pierre TROADEC:
Jean-Pierre is author of the
book Les Ovnis. Collection Que Sais-Je ?, PUF Publishers, Paris,
Auditor at the Institution of Higher National Defense Studies.
Q1: The Cergy-Pontoise case broke in 1979. According to you, what truth does this story
hide: abduction, hoax, secret services’ fake information,
other hypothesis? What confidence do you have, and what piece
of evidence will you rely on?
I often think again about this case.
It affects me personally because, contrary to most investigations that a
researcher happens to make, this one brought me back to a very familiar area:
like the primary witness Frank Fontaine, I was a student at Parc-aux-Charrettes
communal school in Pontoise; like him and his follow students, I know the area
of Cergy very well; and Gérard Deforge, who had Fontaine as a student, is a
close friend. I met Fontaine with the two other witnesses in Pontoise at the
home of Marceau Sicaud, who had followed the whole case.
Today, I still hesitate between the
thesis of a hoax and the possibility of a psychological manipulation. The other
two witnesses, Prévost and N’Diaye, have explained the events in their own way
but Frank’s personality and his doubt about his experience puzzle me:I don’t
think that he has lied. On the other hand, we know that sociological
experiences are common in the framework of psychological warfare. In
Cergy-Pontoise, several obvious ways which could show manipulations have not
been followed up by investigators: why ? The Gepanwas probably wise not to
get more involved in the question, once the hypothesis of a real “abduction”
was ruled out.
Q2: Do abductees like Adamski or Siragusa reveal a real
part of ufological reports or do these stories have a link with something
else? Some believe it to be pure hoax. What do you think of it?
If we refer to “scientific” reality,
it seems clear that what we have here consists of hoaxes (in Adamski’s case)
and psychological issues (delusion, fugue, paraphrenia) in many other cases.
But the impact of these reports is deeper than a mere hoax, which would be
quickly rejected once the truth is known, as was the case with Gulf Breeze’s
famous observations by “Mr Ed” or that of Meier in Switzerland, two cases
that ufology has fortunately forgotten.
Dr. Carl Jung didn’t miss the
cultural and psychological impact of the 50s “contactee” reports, when he
noticed their appeal to powerful archetypes. For instance, contactees were
among the first to mention the risk of dangerous pollution of the planet,
twenty years before ecologists. This is a point on which their alleged cosmic
visitors would often insist….
More recently professor Jeffrey
Kripal, who is chairman of the Religious Studies Department at Rice University,
has taken up this analysis again in terms of the evolution of religious
concepts in the modern world. From this perspective, the fact that new
beliefs are based on unverifiable facts or even false ones has no importance:
Did Jesus Christ really change water into wine?
Q3: It was said that during the Second World War, German
scientists may have developed circular wing machines, flying saucers (Vrils,
Haunebus). Are those information be considered as rumors?
These researches are well
established, and some of those prototypes were recovered (I have seen one in a
laboratory in Texas). From theaeronauticalpoint of view, it was logical to try
to develop such machines. At the end of the war, the firms AVRO in Canada and
Couzinet in France tried to build a functional flying saucer. Americans took up
those researches again, trying to find the Horten brothers. In France the Société
Nationale de Construction Aéronautique du Sud-Ouest (SNCASO) hired Thomas
Townsend Browne (co-founder of NICAP group) in 1955 for works on
electro-gravity. Closer to us, Dr. Moller in California, whom I met in
Sacramento when I saw his prototypes, still tries to build a vertical takeoff
aircraft for the general public, for which he is looking for financing.
With hindsight, we now understand
why these aircraft are unsteady (as soon as they go up above “ground effect”
like a hovercraft) and especially have difficulty with heavy loads or many
passengers: the weight increases with the cube of diameter, and the center of
gravity is too close to the center of lift. To my knowledge, the only
circular aircraft able to carry one or two people are used by soldiers at low
altitude for commando operations, especially in marshy areas. And they don’t
spin around as some German prototypes did. I think that there is no longer any
mystery on this topic.
The front of a Horten Ho 229 (Horten
H. IX) at the Smithsonian Institution’s Garber Restoration Facility. The ony
Horton wing to be recovered. (image credit: Michael Katzmann)
The front of a Horten Ho 229 (Horten
H. IX) at the Smithsonian Institution’s Garber Restoration Facility. The ony
Horton wing to be recovered. (image credit: Michael Katzmann)
Q4: What link do you make between ufology and secret initiation
societies?
If they are keepers of a real
tradition, initiation societies are open to the idea of non-human
consciousness. In Paracelsus, to whom medicine owes some important ideas
and practical remedies, we can find a series of descriptions of beings that are
supposed to have realities similar to ours. The collections of such esoteric
treaties contain precious historical information, apart from speculations
that modern science has now validated or exceeded.
Unfortunately, when we look at the
recent history of these sects, we also find a more sinister
link between their leaders and “services” that use them for political
reasons or simply to facilitate political influence. Some well-informed authors
have reported on these relations regarding the P2 lodge or Amorc and also Masonic
organizations in Africa. In particular, the sect of the Solar Temple had
initiation rituals that included a contact with so-called extraterrestrials,
produced by conjurers’ methods.
Questions of Nagib KARY who is
in charge of the French ufologic media Ovnis-Direct:
Q1: Do you know if there is a program or a plan to be in
contact with the Ufo phenomenon at the moment ?
You can find many such attempts on
the Internet, starting with Dr. Steven Greer’s group. His followers state that
they are in frequent contact with Ufos through bright signals or psychic
exchange. Unfortunately their cameras or videos stop working at the right
moment…Other groups have claimed telepathic contacts. The most reliable projects
start with the identification of high-frequency observation areas, where
researchers hope to be able to establish regular communication. I haven’t seen
convincing results so far.
Q2: What is your opinion about current evolutions of quantum
physics ? According to you, would we be close to discoveries which can
help partly to explain some phenomena related to Ufos?
The question is legitimate,
especially as reliable researches about psychic functioning are facing the same
problem. From the non-locality principle, we must wonder whether thought is not
transmitted immediately (rather than electromagnetic waves, as in Soviet
researches from 1930 to 1940 or French and English scientists’ works in the
beginning of the last century with the “mental radio” concept). If so, it
might be theoretically possible to get into contact with other forms of
consciousness, while beings capable of moving in space might influence us at a
distance, or even make us perceive imaginary scenes.
However, to tell the truth, it seems
to me that in their enthusiasm some researchers use quantum physics a little
bit too much: since these mechanisms remain mysterious, they can be stretched
to explain a lot of phenomena in an exaggerated way. I am more interested in
new ideas on the physics of information, as I said earlier. If space and time
are a side effect of our consciousness and a physical illusion, we should face
the problem of phenomena related to Ufos in a more fundamental way.
Q3: Why does the hypothesis of control deal essentially with
Ufos and people who are related? Might this manipulation of space and time not
materialize current life, in the street, inside houses?
We can imagine a control system that
would distort our reality gradually (both physically and socially) to replace
it with “something else.” This is what Jorge-Luis Borges described in his
masterpiece short story, Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius.
Q4: Could you tell us the main author, researchers who are
currently in the same school of thought as you ?
First, Jeff Kripal and his students
and the participants to his symposia at Esalen over the last few years
(see his book Authors of the Impossible, University of Chicago Press, where he analyzes my work and
that of Bertrand Méheust). These ideas converge with Jean Sider’s work in
France and several physicists in the US, and researchers like Philippe
Guillemant at CNRS. Moreover, there are groups in Silicon Valley that work on
retro-causality and who question physical theories. I think that this work must
be done before asking the question of Ufo reality and nature on a very
scientific basis.
In fact, I could sum up the issue in
the following way: “(1) The Ufo phenomenon does exist, and (2) Knowing
that, we just have to renegotiate what we mean by reality!”
Q5: So, can you understand the fact that someone like John Keel
has been called into question many times ? Did you manage to talk to him
about the manifestation of Point Pleasant (1966-67)?Is that case credible for you? And
do you know if there are other types involving a wide range of varied
paranormal manifestations?
John was not a scientist and didn’t
pretend to be one. He was rightly called into question because his sources were
unverified. I think that he was going too fast and got carried away by the
impressions of the moment. To his great credit he spent a lot of time in the
field, he was the first to state that genuine witnesses make up an invisible
majority, and that the military had a systematic interference program with the
observations. He also called into question the extraterrestrial hypothesis — in
Disneyland of the Gods in particular.
As for Point Pleasant, I can’t
comment about it, I didn’t interview witnesses. But I trust John when he
describes the destruction of a bridge that was predicted by previous messages,
and he concludes that the phenomenon sometimes makes a fool of us at our
expense.
Q6: A lot of Internet users on social networks are keen on the
lights which were filmed in Phoenix in Arizona in 1997 and Ufos crashes on the
ground which would exhibit material debris. Is it possible to link the
hypothesis of the system control with the (Phoenix) facts and assumptions
(crashes, reverse engineering) said previously?
This raises two very different
questions: The Phoenix case shows the limits of our observation system since we
have a lot of reports and a video recording, but we still can’t manage to prove
the nature of the phenomenon. I don’t have additional elements that could solve
the problem, but let’s notice that the Phoenix case is not unique: it coincides
with many unexplained observations of large sets of objects (or lights
associated with a big object) in the USA and elsewhere as in the unsolved case
of 5 November 1990 in France.
Material debris do exist and they
don’t necessarily come from a “crash.” I have published an analysis of several
samples I was entrusted with after an observation of a low altitude object
ejecting a liquid metal : The results are instructive. Of course, the Holy
Grail might be a piece of a crashed machine but it is not obvious that our
laboratories are equipped to understand it: As someone said, give a garage door
opener to Léonardo da Vinci…
Q7: According to your knowledge and statistical data, is it
possible that the system control solves these manifestations again by changing
radically? Which would mean that Ufos could become more discreet and make way
for a new kind of folklore having the same constants.
If we have a look at the history of
the phenomenon over centuries, which we can do now thanks to Chris Aubeck’s
researches and his group “Magoniax” on Internet, we can find both some
constants (in the appearance of the phenomenon, its evolution and its physical
effects) and changes of presentation which seem slightly in advance of
technological ideas of the time. Americans of the 19th century saw impossible
airships some decades before the building of the first airships, for instance.
After the Second World War, we heard about flying saucers with silly small
aerials as in the imagination of Comics. Is it a characteristic of the
control system? Or simply an effect of a society that puts imagination in the
framework of a mysterious phenomenon which still remains unexplained? I agree
with your last hypothesis: a new kind of folklore with the same constants.
Q8: You prefaced Bob Pratt’s book entitled Ovnis – danger –
appel à la vigilance (in English: Ufo Danger Zone: Terror
& Death in Brazil). Have you
known new disturbing cases over the last few years?
I haven’t returned to Brazil since
the 80s. But we keep receiving information which confirms what Bob Pratt
described in his book and what witnesses told me at the spot,
including Brazilian Air Force Intelligence officers like Colonel Hollanda
Lima.
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